LokaNova et Freelang

Bonjour,

Je cherche des explications sur le "ba" qui se préfixe si souvent aux verbes à l'inaccompli en arabe égyptien, car je n'ai jamais compris quand et comment l'utiliser...

Merci d'avance...

Hello,

Sorry, but I can't focus enough to use French now. Hopefully, you understand English. If you don't, let's hope somebody will translate the following.

Being Palestinian, I know Egyptian very well since some parts of Palestine were governed by Egypt for a long time in the past. For a long time we had no media of our own, so I was brought up
listening to Egyptian radio stations, watching Egyptian TV channels, learning reading and writing as a kid using Egyptian textbooks, dreaming of visiting Egypt and speaking Egyptian ( until I went to school, because it became weird since other kids didn't speak like me ) ! Most Palestinians studied in Egypt, and at Palestinian schools we used the Egyptian syllabus and textbooks. We developped our own syllabus only in 2000. ( I personally feel that Palestinians and Egyptians are one people )

Anyway, back to your question, the " ba" used in Egyptian is also used in Palestinian, Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian Arabic with some differences in the pronounciation of the verb. I think that Palestinain Arabic is somehow close to Egyptian. However, the first part contains only Egyptian ( but I don't know how well you know Arabic in general, so I will enclude the conjugation in standard Arabic as well )

- Important things to know :
1- 'ba' is used in the present tense only.
2- It is used with all pronouns.
3- It's not used in standard Arabic.
4- It's placed at the beginning of the verb. ( the ' ba' and the following letter at the beginning are like ' les terminaisons' in French or the s which we add at the end of the verb in English)

Egt = Egyptian
Ar = Arabic
Std= standard
Eng= English
f= feminin
m=masculin
sing= singular
pl= plural
f pl = group of women, girls, feminine things only
m pl = group of men, things which are masculine in Arabic or a group of both men and women.
two= two girls/ two boys/ a girl and a boy.
H= ح a letter which has no equivalent in English and similar languages.
double letter or letter in bold= long vowel



In languages like English, French, etc , when we conjugate the verb, we change the ending. In Arabic, we change the beginning of the verb. ( with some pronouns, we change the beginning and the ending).

Example : the verb ' to drink' يشرب ( pronounced : yashrab). :

Part one : Egt Ar


Ana bashrab أنا بشرب I drink
IHna bneshrab إحنا بنشرب We drink
Inta bteshrab إنتا بتشرب U drink (sing m)
Inti bteshrabi إنتي بتشربي U drink ( sing f)
Into bteshrabo إنتو بتشربو U drink ( two )
Into bteshrabo إنتو بتشربو U drink (pl m)
Into bteshrabo إنتو بتشربو U drink (pl f )
Howwa byeshrab هوّ بيشرب He drinks
Hiyya bteshrab هيّ بتشرب She drinks
Homma byeshrabo همّا بيشربو They drink(two)
Homma byesharbo همّا بيشربو They drink(pl m)
Homma byeshrabo همّا بيشربو They drink (pl f)


Part two :Std Ar


Ana ashrabo أنا أشرب
NaHno nashrabo نحن نشرب
Anta tashrabo أنت تشرب
Anti tashrabeena أنت تشربين
Antoma tashrabani أنتما تشربان
Antom tashraboona أنتم تشربون
Antonna tashrabna أنتن تشربن
Howa yashrabo هو يشرب
Hiya tashrabo هي تشرب
Homa yashrabani هما يشربان
Hom yashraboona هم يشربون
Honna yashrabna هن يشربن

That's all I could come up with for now.If you tell me how well you know Arabic and what exactly you need to understand, I may be able to help you better.

Bye

Thanks for the explanations.
However my question is when to use the "ba" and when not to use it.
For example I know that after some words such as "lamma", they never use it, and in some cases, it doesn't make any significant difference whether you use it or not.
In Egyptian textbooks written by French scholars, they call the ba+verb form the indicative form, and the verb alone the subjunctive form, however the actual distinction doesn't seem to have anything to do with the French indicative/subjunctive distinction...

So it would be great if you could elaborate on the usage of this "ba"

Thanks a lot !

Hello again,

I guess I understand your question better now.
To be honest, I never knew there were books about Egyptian Arabic, because simply you just can't learn it in the way you learn standard Arabic or English or any other language because it's not used in books or the news ( sometimes it's used in comic books), it's just spoken. It really shocked me when you told me about indicative/ subjunctive in Egyptian Arabic. Since I'm a native speaker, I don't need to know rules to speak well, I just speak well. So, perhaps French scholars studied Egyptian Arabic, tried to notice how sentences are formed and wrote books on that in a way that will enable the French to understand better. I assure you, I spent 12 years at school learning Arabic grammar, and I never read anything about indicative and subjunctive. We don't have " les modes" in Arabic, we simply have past, present and imperative.

All I can do now is give you some examples, and I hope you try to conclude rules from what I say and compare it with your books, and if you have any question, I will be delighted to answer.

1-Ana bashrab a'seer kol yom= I drink juice everyday.
This is a simple sentence, indicative. The 'ba' is used.

2-lamma teshrab el Haleeb, Ha takhod feloos= when you drink the milk, you'll take money. ( father to his child )
As you see, this is a conditional sentence. The first verb after lamma doesn't have the "ba ". The second part is in the future, and we didn't use the'ba' here either. This brings us to ' How to form a sentence with the future in Egyptian'.

Simply, remove the ' ba' and replace it with "Ha" or "raH" ( raH, I guess, is less common that Ha in Egyptian, but it is used)
-Ana bashrab (present). -Ana Hashrab ( future) or raH ashrab
-Enta bteshrab ( present). -Enta Ha teshrab (future) or raH teshrab

3-lamma bteshrab el Haleeb, betakhod feloos= When you drink milk, you take money.
This sentence seems to be the same as the previous one. And to make sure it is not, I went to my sister and asked her to tell me how she understood each one. It turned out that she understood them in the same way I did.
The previous one (sentence 2) is about a particular situation. The boy is supposed to drink his milk everyday. Today, he refuses to, so his father tells him he will reward him if he drinks it by giving him money.

This sentence (3)mmmmm.. is like.. let's say a "fact". The boy hates milk to death and he never agrees to drink it, so in order to " tempt" him, his father says that if the boy drinks it everyday, he will give him money, ie when the boy drinks milk, he takes money.

By the way, Egyptians usually say 'el laban' instead of el 'Haleeb' which is used in standard Arabic.
Palestinians say ' el laban' for yoghurt, Haleeb for milk. Egyptians say 'ezzabadi' for yoghurt, 'el laban' for milk ( they may use el Haleeb)

The same thing : lamma benrooH esseem bnakhod tax.= when we go to the cinema/ movies, we take a taxi/cab. ( This family doesn't have a car).
I guess, in this case, we can also say: lamma nrooH esseema bnakhod tax. (they always get a cab )

4-lazem teshrab el laban/Haleeb.= You must drink milk. ( ba isn't used)
In French this would be : Il faut que tu boives le lait. So, here it is subjunctive. But we can also say : Tu dois boire le lait. This is indicative.
But I prefer (Il faut) because " lazem" doesn't change with any pronoun ( lazem yeshrabo= they must/should drink) neither does "Il faut".

5-ana momken/ a'adar(aqdar) ashrab 5 azayez mayya.= I may/can drink 5 bottles of water.
Again, it's not used, though it's indicative in French! ( je peux boire 5 bouteilles d'eau )

6-lamma kont soghayyar, kont akol aktar= when I was young, I used to eat more.
You can also say : lamma kont soghyyar, kont bakol aktar. The meaning is the same. This is indicative in French : Quand j'étais jeune, je mangeais plus.

7-enta rofayya3 ma3 ennak betakol kiteer.= you are thin though you eat a lot.
It's subjunctive ( Bien que tu manges beaucoup, tu es maigre). However, we used the ba!

8-atmanna ennak terdha= I hope you agree.
No ' ba' in the sentence.

As you see, comparing Arabic with French doesn't always work.

That's all for now. When I have other thoughts, I will add them. If there's anything not understood, please do ask.[/u]

Very interesting! Thanks a LOT for these explanations.
I had been begging my Egyptian friends to try and find a way to explain all this to me, they never managed to do so! They say it's just "customs", which obviously it is not, seeing the examples you give.

To be honest, I never knew there were books about Egyptian Arabic, because simply you just can't learn it in the way you learn standard Arabic or English or any other language because it's not used in books or the news ( sometimes it's used in comic books), it's just spoken.

Well, I guess a more important reason is the status of Arabic dialects, which Arab native speakers more often than not disparaginly label as "slangs". The fact that most material and research on dialects were made abroad, not in Arab countries, is very telling...

I think it is very unfair though, given that a foreigner living in Egypt (for example) will spend 90% of his time using the dialect, and resort to MSA only to read and listen to the news...

I assure you, I spent 12 years at school learning Arabic grammar, and I never read anything about indicative and subjunctive. We don't have " les modes" in Arabic, we simply have past, present and imperative.

Yup, that's why I found it really strange too.

Back to your explanations... Please tell me if I understood : the logic that seems to dictate the use of "ba" is the disctinction between :

1/a fact that is happening in reality (examples 1, 3, 6, 7), in which case you add "ba" ;

2/something that is not (yet) a fact (2 : condition, 4 : advice or prompt, 5 : possibility, 8 : hope) but which is simply envisaged, in which case you don't use "ba".

So, is that it?

Another thing, about 2 and 3 : would it be correct to say that 2 could be translated with an "if" sentence : "if you drink, you will get the money" while 3 could be translated as "you get money when you drink" ? Or have I simply misunderstood the difference?

If you can confirm, I will try to make some sentences myself and hope that you can correct them to test my understanding, if you have enough time to keep answering my posts.

Thanks again

Hello,
First, let me add some sentences which occurred to me, before I forget them.

9-ma teshrabsh. = don't drink
We don't use the "ba".

10-ow3a teshrab = don't drink ( it's like a warning )
Again, no "ba".

11-enta bteshrab eih ?= What are you drinking ? or what do you drink ?

There's the 'ba'.

Here, I can tell you that there is a similarity between Arabic and French : the present tense can be used when talking about something that's happening now, or in general. ( However, the French sometimes use "en train de" to talk about things that are happening now)


Now let's see your post.

Very interesting! Thanks a LOT for these explanations

You are welcome.

they never managed to do so! They say it's just "customs", which obviously it is not, seeing the examples you give.

Of course, it's customs to native speakers. To you, as a learner, it is not, because you try to notice the sentences and know some rules to follow them. In order to write my previous post, I had to imitate Egyptian actors and try to notice how I myself spoke, it was weird. When I read your last post, I was surprised by the rules you mentioned but by comparing them with reality they are mostly correct. If your friends had done the same, they may have been able to help, I guess.
But as we say in Arabic, I would cut my arm if you could learn Arabic dialects without SPONTANEOUS conversations.

I think it is very unfair though, given that a foreigner living in Egypt (for example) will spend 90% of his time using the dialect, and resort to MSA only to read and listen to the news...

I couldn't agree more. Anyhow, if you live in any Arab country, you have to learn MSA and the dialect of the country.

1/a fact that is happening in reality (examples 1, 3, 6, 7), in which case you add "ba"

2/something that is not (yet) a fact (2 : condition, 4 : advice or prompt, 5 : possibility, 8 : hope) but which is simply envisaged, in which case you don't use "ba".

After comparing... mmmm.. I guess yeah.

Another thing, about 2 and 3 : would it be correct to say that 2 could be translated with an "if" sentence : "if you drink, you will get the money" while 3 could be translated as "you get money when you drink" ? Or have I simply misunderstood the difference?

Yes, it could be translated with an "if" sentence, and you didn't misunderstand.

If you can confirm, I will try to make some sentences myself and hope that you can correct them to test my understanding, if you have enough time to keep answering my posts.

Well, I did confirm a couple of lines ago. Making sentences would perfect, I'll try to check them for you as often as I can. Don't hesitate to ask about anything else.

Thanks again

You are welcome again.