les verbes russes - comment apprendre?

[ANTHOS]

Salut

J'ai besoin de conseils des russophones.

Quand on apprend un verbe russe, quels élements faut-il retenir?

Par exemple, en ce qui concerne les verbes en -et, j'ai compris que le conjugaison suivait le modele du mot 'savoir', 'oumet, ya oumeyiou etc

Mais il me semble qu'il y a pas mal des verbs en -et ou un 'n' appairaissent dans le conjugaison, comme pour le mot 'déshabiller', 'razdetsia', 'ya razdenous' etc.

J'ai bien en tete qu'il y a toujours les exceptions mais quels élements faut-il retenir?

A priori je dirais:
- l'infinitif perfectif et imperfectif
- la forme 'da…'
- la forme 'ti…'

Merci d'avance

Andréas

[svernoux]

Ouh là là, j'ai plus tout ça en tête... En fait, il y a des groupes de verbes (comme en français) avec un conjugaison type pour chaque groupe, puis après y'a les exceptions. Mais je ne me rappelle pas tout ça à froid, je te ferai un petit topo si tu veux mais pas ce soir je pense... c'est pas trop urgent ?

[ANTHOS]

c'est pas trop urgent - merci d'avance.

(d'ailleurs je n'ai pas oublié le projet dico....)

[svernoux]

Bon, je commence avec une partie, mais en fait, ce n'est que le début. Je t'ai résumé les deux modèles de conjugaison du russe (tu peux mettre ça en tableaux, ce sera plus pratique, seulement j'arrive pas à mettre de tableaux dans le forum alors c'est tout à la queu-leu-leu ) :

***

LE PRÉSENT

Verbes de la 1ère conjugaison

я иду
ты идёшь
он идёт
мы идём
вы идёте
они идут

я работаю
ты работаешь
он работает
мы работаем
вы работаете
они работают

Terminaisons :
-у / -ю
-ёшь / -ешь
-ёт / -ет
-ём / -ем
-ёте / -ете
-ут / -ют


Verbes de la 2ème conjugaison

я стучу
ты стучишь
он стучит
мы стучим
вы стучите
они стучат

я строю
ты строишь
он строит
мы строим
вы строите
они строят

Terminaisons :
-у / -ю
-ишь
-ит
-им
-ите
-ат / -ят

***

Ca, c'est juste une règle générale. Déjà, si tu as des questions dessus, pose-les. Ensuite, ce qu'il faudra, c'est que je t'indique comment reconnaître quel verbe appartient à quel groupe ; mais le problème c'est que, m'étant un peu plongée dans ma grammaire, je m'apperçois que plus je lis, moins je comprends... Bref, c'est assez complexe, faudrait que je relise tout donc je vais sûrement te livrer ça par petits bouts, ou bien au bout d'un certain temps...

La suite au prochain numéro, donc.

[ANTHOS]

Merci Sonka - t'es supergentille.

En fait, je sais tout ce que t'as mis dans ton message - je t'en remercie. Par contre, je ne veux pas que tu prenne trop du temps à cause de moi. Je suis bien d'accord que les verbes sont complexes mais je ne veux pas que tu lises à ma place.

Dans quelques mots, je me suis dit que c'est la peine d'apprendre les verbes correctement dès maintenant et j'essaie de trouver les astuces ou peut-etre des raccourcis.

Je sais pas si je me fais comprendre...

Andréas

[sv]

let me in with my english.... he he

'razdetsia', 'ya razdenous'...

in russian lots of verbs can be reflexive

'-sia' at the end means 'self', or to make something by self
but not always the diference is clair.

раздеть - undress (someone)
раздеться - undress self, to get off one's clothes

стучать - to knock (on something; like at the door, on the table, etc)
стучаться - to knock [at the door]

with the door there is no difference, you may say:
он стучит (в дверь) = он стучится (в дверь)

but with the table, etc, you can't use стучаться, only стучать.

-ся (or -сь) is just added at the end:

я стучу - я стучусь
ты стучишь - ты стучишься
он стучит - он стучится
мы стучим - мы стучимся
вы стучите - вы стучитесь
они стучат - они стучатся

- - -

with раздеть there is a problem. Russian verbs have or belong to two aspects: perfective aspect and imperfective aspect. This is not a tense or conjugation this is the aspect of the verb itself. Every verb is either perfective or imperfective. Perfective verbs don't have present tense, but only past and future tenses. But imperfective have only past and present tenses (future tense could be formed with them but in a different way using the verb to be, which is not used in conjugations usually). Seeing this picture some foreigners say simply that thre are 5 tenses in Russian. But we are sure there are only three. And aspect is the aspect. Aspect is seen in infinitive.

Раздеть is a perfective verb. Imperfective verb with the same meaning is раздевать. You may say Russians have a pair of verbs for every meaning - perfecvite and imperfective to cover all three tenses.

Aspect is the thing called tense in English. In English no differnce is made between tense and aspect. They call both of them tenses. There are perfect tenses and e.g. indefinite tenses. And every verb can be used with both of them. But in Russian verbs themselves are either perfective or not. This feature is not added conjugating the verb. This feature belongs to the verb itself.

We divide between aspects this way - perfective verbs in infinitive answer the question: что сделать? (~ what will have done?), but imperfective: что делать? (what to do?)

Perfective and imperfective verbs usually have the same stems, and aspect could be formed by adding prefixes or suffixes.

E.g. the verb write - писать is imperfective.
to make it perfective prefix is added - написать.

Perfective verbs could be made imperfective adding suffixes:
записать - to write down (perfective; but with another prefix)
записывать - to write down (imperfective)

If to compare with English tenses -
Indefinite tenses coincide with imperfective verbs usage
Continuous tenses coincide with imperfective verbs usage
Perfect tenses coincide with perfective verbs usage
Perfect continuous tenses coincide with imperfective verbs usage

something like that. But i'm not sure..... There is such a mess in Russian grammar...

пока.

[svernoux]

En fait, je sais tout ce que t'as mis dans ton message - je t'en remercie. Par contre, je ne veux pas que tu prenne trop du temps à cause de moi. Je suis bien d'accord que les verbes sont complexes mais je ne veux pas que tu lises à ma place.

Dans quelques mots, je me suis dit que c'est la peine d'apprendre les verbes correctement dès maintenant et j'essaie de trouver les astuces ou peut-etre des raccourcis.

T'inquiète pas : chercher pour toi, ça m'a permis de me rendre compte qu'une petite révision ne me ferait pas de mal... Donc, je vais quand même me pencher là-dessus. Je sais pas si je pourrai en tirer quelque chose d'exploitable pour toi, mais j'essayerai quand même.

Sinon, pour les astuces : je ne sais pas comment tu fonctionnes. Mais l'histoire des groupes que je t'ai indiqué, en fait c'est déjà une bonne aide. Moi qd j'ai commencé le russe, personne ne m'a parlé de ces deux groupes, ce qui fait que j'apprenais la conjugaison de chaque verbe par coeur. Ensuite, quand j'ai su qu'il y a avait deux groupes, ça m'a beaucoup facilité les choses : quand je rencontrais un nouveau verbe, je m'informais du groupe auquel il appartenait, ce qui m'évitait de l'apprendre entièrement par coeur. Ca facilite quand même pas mal la mémorisation ! Après, bien sûr, l'idéal, c'est de trouver un "truc" pour déterminer d'emplée à quel groupe appartient un verbe, mais je ne sais pas si ce truc existe, je vais chercher.

Après, le problème du "n" dans "razdenus", c'est à un autre niveau, je ne sais pas s'il y a une règle, j'essayerai de trouver...

Et pour ce qu'a dit sv, c'est tout très juste, mais ça situe aussi tout à fait à un autre niveau.

[svernoux]

thanks sv for all this very pertinent info.

We divide between aspects this way - perfective verbs in infinitive answer the question: что сделать? (~ what will have done?), but imperfective: что делать? (what to do?)

As usually, things are not that easy. Because this tip, although fully correct, is totally useless for foreigners learning Russian. It is only useful for native Russian speakers who need to determine wether a verb is perfective or imperfective.

[ANTHOS]

Thanks guys.

Thanks sv for your message. Most of it is revision for me but there was some extra info which is useful.

In fact, I have a 'feel' for imperfective vs perfective because of my knowledge of Greek (which has even more verb stems). I think that there are more semantic nuances in Russian, eg perfective for starting an activity or for doing an activity for a short while.

Sophie: Luckily I learnt the two categories of verbs early on. My main reason for learning the 'Da ' and 'Ti' versions is to know which category they belong to (from the Ti form) and whether there is a consonant change in the 'Da' form....

Dobriy dien

Andréas

[svernoux]

Most of it is revision for me but there was some extra info which is useful.

This means you're a much more advanced learner than I thought... I though you were a real beginner.

In fact, I have a 'feel' for imperfective vs perfective because of my knowledge of Greek (which has even more verb stems).

Lucky you!

My main reason for learning the 'Da ' and 'Ti' versions is to know which category they belong to (from the Ti form) and whether there is a consonant change in the 'Da' form....

hem... actually, even from the start, I haven't understood what you mean with those ti and da. What is that you're talking about???

[ANTHOS]

hello back sophie - forgive me for writing english but it's easier for me and so I can write a message quickly and get back to my work.

I meant to say 'ya' and 'ti', ie the first and second person singular. I sometimes make this mistake - I don't know why.

I am still a beginner but I am trying to master the grammar through my own study. Other people think I am a bit strange because of this. I also place a lot of emphasis on prononciation.

Bye for now

Andréas

[svernoux]

hello back sophie - forgive me for writing english but it's easier for me and so I can write a message quickly and get back to my work.

Not a problem

I meant to say 'ya' and 'ti', ie the first and second person singular. I sometimes make this mistake - I don't know why.

How funny. I make this mistake, not in Russian but because of Russian : since I've been learning Russian, I often say "da" in German instead of "ja" (= yes in German), whereas "da" means something else in German, which is quite puzzling for the people I'm talking with...
Well, back to our concern: did you mean that 1st and 2nd person singular are the most problematic for you, or that they have most exceptions? Don't know, but as promised, I'll have a closer look at this...

[sv]

Сонька, yes you're right. Those questions suit only for native speakers.
As for me i can't tell which verb is which before asking those questions.
It's a hard problem. People often do not distinguish between perfective and imperfective verbs and tend to consider them one verb, e.g. раздеть, раздевать. they would easily say that in я раздел, я раздену, я раздеваю the same verb is used. (and i myself have to turn verb into infinitive fisrt to see what it is). The future with я буду раздевать is almost not used, we would say: я раздеваю (present; imperf.) - я раздену (future; perf.).

How do you study them then?

ANTHOS, yes, I think your knowledge of Greek will help you .
You understand it right. "starting an activity or for doing an activity for a short while" counts i think there must be perfective verbs.

[svernoux]

Сонька, yes you're right. Those questions suit only for native speakers.
As for me i can't tell which verb is which before asking those questions.
It's a hard problem. People often do not distinguish between perfective and imperfective verbs and tend to consider them one verb

That's fully normal, it's the same for all native speakers in relationship to their mothertongue. We all have lots of things that we can't explain in our own language, and even that we don't understand at all, but we just know that they are such and know instinctively how to use them. (by the way, yesterday I asked my boyfriend some question about this matter with Russian verbs, or, I'd rather say, I tried to ask him because he said at once there is no way he can help because he hasn't got a clue which verb is what and which group it belongs to, and even never ever knew that there were verb groups in Russian...)
But I think maybe this is even more the case with Russian. Here I'm not sure, maybe you can give me a clue, but after what I could observe, even if the Russian educational system is or was very performant in most areas (sciences and so on), I would not be surprised if you said that Russian grammar is not taught at all in Russia. I mean, French people for instance may not know everything about their grammar, but still they know something, because everyone in France can remember learning verb groups, grammatical rules and so on... even if most of the people forget it all after school. Whereas in Russia, everytime I ask something about grammar, I feel like nobody has a clue about anything, or rather, nobody knows that there are grammatical rules. What can you say about this ?

How do you study them then?

Well... that's actually the problem. I personaly consider that verbs are the most difficult point in Russian (for a French person, I mean). Because most of the use of verbs is pure feeling, without anything rational, and you have to practise much in order to master it. But even with daily practice and after one year in Ukraine, I cannot say that I master verbs, not at all...

And for French beginners, it is very hard to understand why a perfective verb declined in the present tense (that is to say, with the same terminations as in present) actually expresses the future tense. And also why there are two aspects in past, future and infinitive but not in present. Such questions are cery puzzling for French students.

To answer your question more precisely, there are some tips about Russian verbs for French learners. For example, we often compare imperfective verbs (in the past) with French tense "imparfait" and perfective verbs with French "passé composé" or "passé simple". But actually, there are many many cases where this comparison is wrong.
Another tip is that negations in Russian are often followed by imperfective verbs (e.G. : you'd rather say "ya ne hochu spat" than "ya ne hochu pospat", or rather "nelzya smeyatsya" than "nelzya posmeyatsya"). But here again there are so many exceptions to this tip that I can hardly say that it really helps...

[sv]

what is taught in Russia?
well Russians are taught grammar at school, but as i remember people are taught to write mostly. Everything is about to make people to write correctly. All the grammar is taught from the side of spelling. So what Russians are taught about grammar and what foreigners are taught - are two big differences. Russians know rules, know exceptions, they study verbs but only in order to write them correctly. They learn conjugations only to know where to spell -ish or -esh, etc, cause you not always can write verbs properly just knowing how they sound. As for me, i have to ask myself everytime where i have to spell -ться or -тся. Cause phonetically there is no difference.

You know in Latvia during USSR times all Lativans spoke Russian perfectly. But Russians almost didn't speak Latvian. Because of the education system. The only language taught perfectly was Russian to non Russian speakers. And it was so everywhere in the USSR. It's a miracle or what, but local nations even in republics outside Russia like Middle Asia spoke and still speak Russian much better then western professors.

So I would consider the best idea to find e.g. Soviet Latvian textbooks of Russian to see what is there. But I never saw their textbooks.

My Краткий справочник по грамматике русского языка for Lativans tells:

Imperfective verb in past tense indicates that the action took place in general (я учил, я решал)
Perfective verb in past tense indicates that action was completed (я выучил, я решил)

And that's all they say.

As for me:
нельзя смеяться - they speak about the action in general, as a prossess without the beginning and the end.

-- /------/ -- this is prossess in general, the part of it just cut off to observe, and there is no beginning and the end and someone just says - no prossess.

But when someone says:
нельзя посмеяться - they talk not about the prossess, but about the action which has the beginning and the end, they mean some definite even if very abstract action, i.e. to laugh at something, like there was a reason to do it.

(------) this is a completed prossess, the action with the beginning and the end, and someone says - no action.

this is the difference as i feel it. does it create more mess?