bynames (Latin)

[Roxy]

researching bynames for the SCA. need a little help translating a possible byname into latin. i have components i would like to use, but don't know the grammar to string it together.

general name in english:
1. the serpent/snake of darkness/night (feminine)
or
2. the pale serpent (feminine)

have come up with serpens for serpent, or colubra for a feminine snake, nox noctis for darkness, or sleep, and exsanguis for pale or bloodless.
now, would #1. be written as "serpens de nox noctis" or "colubra de nox noctis"?
would #2. be written as "serpens exsanguis" or "exsanguis serpens"?

not very knowledgable on latin, a bit of help would be appreciated.
roxy

[Olivier]

You should put "Latin" in the topic title to call people more knowledgeable in Latin
If you want a family name that suggests a female, colubra might be better
Nox is the base (subject) form and noctis the genitive which you need here (night's / of night) without "de" which is not Latin but French, Spanish etc
But wait for better advice (Sisyphe are you here?)
-- Olivier

[Latinus]

Roxy is a guest, he can't edit his own message

== Subject edited ==

[Sisyphe]

1. As said Oliver, "nox noctis" is twice the same word ! A latin dictionnary presents always the nominative case, and the genitive case of a word, because you need the both to use it. Indeed is latin an inflexionnal language : the form of the word depends whether it is used as subject, object, noun complement etc.

2. "colubra" does not mean any sort of snake, but the grass snake (which does note bite). Conversly, "serpens" could be masculine or feminin (actually, it is often feminin, contrary to "anguis", which is always masculin).

3. Exsanguis means means properly "bloodless" : which have not blood anymore. You said it for a dead, or at least for a hardly scared person. "pale" is "pallidus" (so "pallida", feminin).

(In the following phrases, "serpens" is ever concorded as feminin, if possible)

The serpent of darkness : tenebrarum serpens
The serpent of night : noctis serpens
The pale serpent : pallida serpens.

[Olivier]

2. "colubra" does not mean any sort of snake, but the grass snake (which does note bite).

In modern (scientific) Latin or already at classical times?
As I understand it, the request is for a "byname" = a family name for some kind of game, which everybody should understand as the name of a woman not a man, so solutions are probably better with a good final -a or at least an adjective ending in -a.
-- Olivier

[Sisyphe]

2. "colubra" does not mean any sort of snake, but the grass snake (which does note bite).

In modern (scientific) Latin or already at classical times?

Well, the french latin dictionnary of Félix Gaffiot said explicitly "couleuvre femelle" = female grass snake". But the Oxford Latin Dictionnary is not so accurate. But if you look at Pliny the Elder's examples, the "colubra" seems to be one species of serpent (but he said, as I understand, that the "colubra" is living in water (does the grass snake did it ?). Conversly, the example from Vulgate said that the bite of "colubra" does kill - and I know the snake grass does not do it (but bible latin is not good latin !).

So...

As I understand it, the request is for a "byname" = a family name for some kind of game, which everybody should understand as the name of a woman not a man, so solutions are probably better with a good final -a or at least an adjective ending in -a.
-- Olivier

You're right. The form with "a" are more explicitly feminin.
I have not said that "colubra" were wrong (you can put it, instead of "serpens" in my phrases, withoug changing anything else). You can even say "vipera" (which is clearly the adder)... but that's more aggressive !